Tuesday, November 6, 2012

You win...

You're right. I'm wrong. Will you stop now? Things that brought me such happiness - writing this blog, reading your comments, reading your e-mails, and interacting with my readers - are tainted by a few people's cruelty. I've asked you to be civil, to stop the name calling, to be nicer, and you just won't. You justify your bad behaviour by accusing me of being a fraud, of spreading misinformation, of not reading your evidence, and I'm tired of it.

If you would like to see a small sample of what is giving me such grief, you can see it here in the comments section of this post on using baking soda in place of shampoo. I'm leaving it up for the next few days so you can see what I mean, then I'm deleting the post. I've never done that before, but I really can't take this any more. 

Saying that you're not bullying me doesn't make it so. Justifying it by calling me aggressive doesn't absolve you of your cruel behaviour. If your daughter was behaving like this, you would be ashamed., so why is it okay behaviour for adults? Why can't you read the blog and walk away if you don't like what you see? Why do you think that your need to say hurtful things to me is more important than my feelings?

I know I shouldn't let the bullies win, but I just don't have the energy to read this stuff any more. I'll be back. Soon. I just want a little peace.


Rae said...

They did, just this once, win :(

They chose to go to this blog, they chose to spend time reading, they chose to get irked. Yet they can always just stay away.

There's a lot of websites and blogs I dont like. I can get my panties in a bunch and argue with the author but I don't. Coz one comment usually won't change someoneelse's mind. But you can always make your own site to express your opinion, just as you are doing here. They should do the same.

Carradee said...

I've read the comments, but I'm not following what you found so insulting. (I say this as someone who's been publicly insulted and ridiculed by even a publisher, so it's possible I have an unusually thick skin.)

I see some commenters pointing out that the blog post was lacking pertinent data. I also see some pointing out that the blog post's lack of firsthand evidence runs counter to your claimed purpose of the blog.

What I'm seeing are FYI comments, not bullying. *shrug*

Could they be politer? Some of them, probably, but tone doesn't come through online, so it's healthier to assume they meant well.

Are you getting enough sunlight? I know I get lethargic and moody when I'm Vitamin D–deficient. Another possibility that can cause the low energy would be adrenal issues.

:-/ I hope you feel better.

Lavarie - der Seifenblog said...

Oh my dear :-(
Take a rest and then please com back and perhaps find a way to ignore such nasty writers *?*
That is such a shame, as your blog really is a rare gem regarding all the honest effort you put in it and this huuuge pool of information you provide us with.

I whish you can find your inner distance :-)

Keep rocking Susan!

Mark Fuller said...

The Internet is full of so called experts waiting for the chance to be offended and offend. Don't take it so personal.
I am a Cosmetic Chemist and Consultant. I work with small Kitchen Formulators and get their products made by mainstream manufacturers. I like your blog and oftentimes I will reference my clients to it. Keep up the good work.

Veronique said...

Susan don't let the haters get you down! You're doing an awesome job and thousands of people are thankful for your work! Just keep up your good work, you have thought me so much! <3

Lise M Andersen said...

Please don't delete the post Susan. Rather set the comments in your settings for that particular post to 'comments closed' and leave it sit. Then just move forward with writing new posts and sharing your thoughts, ideas, inspirations, and recipes with the slew of people who check in to get their daily 'dose of Susan' ...

pretty please? :)

Ruth said...

My Grandma used to say to me..
If you are right, Ruth, don't let anyone take that away.
Hold your head high, and continue on with what you know is right..Don't look to the right or left, just straight ahead...

Susan, don't let a few spoil, for you what you love.
You have a large following of friends that love what you are doing..
You are making it possible for us to follow our love of creating for our families, and just for the love of making new things, that would be harder for us to do, without you.

If they choose to be ignorant, let them stay that way.

Beck said...

Anonymous kicking up dirt... thanks. Now if only we could make some internet soap to wash that scum away we would all be happier! I come here to read interesting articles and maybe learn a thing or two. If that person has a blog with their opinions and their "evidence" based theories than I would read that too. Screw them for ruining my favourite blog!

Mark Fuller said...

I looked at the posts and believe me I have seen much worse. I will occasionally post on other Industry sites and I will get the same attacks from "experts." You can't win. I usually attempt one well written response. If they carry on I simply move on. They have already made their mind up and no objective argument will be received.
Baking soda will do little other than change the pH of the product. It is a poor buffer, hence the reason that we use NaOH as a buffer instead.

Kathy said...

Chin up, Susan. The positive comments you received versus the negative ones are 1,000 to 1. I've read hundreds of positive comments about your blog... you aren't going to please everyone, but I bet you're batting 99%. Keep up the great and inspiring work.

catherine said...

Ditto what mark and lise said!

It's election day in the u.s.

Countries should be democracies but maybe not blogs? :) although i like lise's suggestion re closing comments.

May I humbly make a suggesion? Someone on oprah (maybe oprah) said 'what you focus on grows.' That really struck me and I've noticed it's true.

So maybe ignore mean people and focus on nice people and things will get better. Simplistic but effective.

If you never write another recipe, let me thank you, once again, for your conditioner bar series, esp the conditioner/shaving bar, which my husband calls genius. :)

Sânziene şi Mătrăgună said...

What Mark said - I have just commented in that post asking why do we use a strong base when making soap.

All in all, Susan, keep your head high. I believe that what keeps being an insulte is a web site like EWG and people wanting to believe in a knight in shiny armor, saving them from bad cosmetics killing us. Hugs!

Christina Kessler said...

Hi Susan,

I'm sorry you are getting flamed. I know how hard that can be. The only thing that helps is to stay away for a little while, get perspective, and ignore comments that are just trying to be insulting.

Even when I occasionally don't agree with something you say, I find your blog a useful source of information and interesting ideas. Without your blog I would still be trying things like indian herbs, vinegar, and catnip, which did not work for me for various reasons. I can see how they have the potential to work for some, but they didn't work for me (I think we have very similar hair types btw). Now I have formulated my own conditioner that works better than anything I've ever bought or any "pure" and "natural" herbal concoction (and I tried many). I'm still working on perfecting my shampoo, but I know I'll get there someday, mostly thanks to the info on this blog!

Thanks for what you bring.

Christina Kessler said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Carol said...

lPlease don't delete your post. I love reading all your posts. I am sorry you are being harassed. It is sad that some choose to try to press their point so adamantly. Please, Please?

Evik said...

Dear Susan,

please, do not remove the post! It is overreaction.

I know it, I really do how it feels. My action of getting rid of that kind of "havetoproofhisright" comments was the following:

1) I deleted all that I did not like - I felt bad about it, but I could not make better - I could not sleep because of that!

2) Changed my blog setting to moderation of each of them. I set up a rule that I am authorizing only non-anonymous comments. It is a very, very nice filter...

3) By moderation, I directly select which comment I publish and which not. I like it. Did not have problems since...

The comments are not that bad. But I know that it feels 1000% worse when it is us to whom they are addressed.

The same way feel those others to which you addressed your post. They feel offended, it is the human nature.

Just delete the comments and go on.

And please, do not delete the post, I would love to reference to it on my blog (I am preparing a review on how the natural methods really do not work for me...)

Take care!


melian1 said...

i totally see the nastiness there. the name calling and the gratuitous putdowns, all without any actual evidence.

your blog rocks! they didn't win, you finally chose to disengage. i fear that one or two people who get off on calling names and making other people wrong simply by overwhelming them with nastiness will cause you to cease doing this blog. haters hate, attackers get their jollies by attacking and it generally has little or nothing to do with the actual content.

definitely put a filter that no one who hides behind anonymous like a coward can post!


my thought is to simply disengage when they start the crap. delete the nasty/attacking posts and move forward. it's all you can do, really.

Organa said...

Susan are with you go ahead with your posts, do not worry about who disagrees with you follow your convictions.

Hissy Fit said...

Dear, Lovely, Susan...

First, thank you so much for all the information and experience you share. You've often inspired me to try something new. You've also given me many smiles with your humorous, kind writing style.

I'm going to share something may grandmother told me decades ago that has served me well over the years...

I was about 7 years old when I learned a friend had been talking about me behind my back. I was devastated! My first betrayal! How could I go on?! I ran crying and blubbering back to the house where Grandma was busy at her sewing machine. Through the hiccups and sniveling I related my tragedy. Surely this was a time for a huge Grandma hug and rock. Perhaps some gentle cooing while she ran her fingers through my hair and whispered how everything was going to be all right.

"Good thing you're tough, Sweetpea," without her even looking up from her machine was what I got instead.

I was shocked! Where was the comforting?! the reassurances?! Again, I was betrayed! I think I probably became silent, too, because she stopped everything and turned around in her chair to face me squarely. The only other times I remember that happening was when I needed a serious "talking to."

She explained, "Some folks are just h--l bent and determined to talk about other folks. No matter what, they're gonna find someone to talk mean about. Now some people get really hurt when people talk about them, and then they start thinking maybe those other people are right, and then they start thinking bad about themselves, too." She had my attention. "Now you, Sweetpea, know what she said is not true, and no matter how many times she says it, or how many people she says it to, you're still gonna know it's not true. So, if she's gonna tell lies about somebody, isn't it best if she tells lies about somebody like you that can never be hurt by believing it?"

I agreed. And, I've been agreeing ever since. If someone's talking nastily about me, I puff out my chest and feel like a human shield. I drew the gossip's sights away from someone else. I don't know how resilient the other targets may be, but I do know I'm tough. I can take it. (My Grandma said so!)

Susan, You're Tough, You're Genuine, and You're Very Appreciated!

Susan Barclay-Nichols said...

I think I'm fairly thick skinned. I used to be a welfare worker in some of the poorest neighbourhoods in Vancouver, and a child protection social worker. (I'm a family counsellor now. I've been in more crack houses than I care to count, so it's not like I'm in cushy-job-ville now!) If I had a dollar for every insult and swear I heard directed at me in a day, I'd be throwing cosmeceuticals into everything! But those were desperate people in desperate situations. I could distance myself from the insults because they had to fight back against something and I represented the government.

Thanks for your encouragement! So many kind things you've said. How wonderful! Thank you for reminding me why I write this blog!

More soon...

Anonymous said...

Wow, I can't even begin to top Hissy Fit's comments (or Grandma's wisdom!!!). I absolutely love reading your blog. I have never tried to make anything of my own, I'm actually a representative for Lemongrass Spa out of Colorado. I read your blog because I'm just fascinated by the science of it all!! Stay strong, but get some sun and some rest. Come back soon. Angela

Anonymous said...

I have been reading your blog for 2 years now and really love all your work. I especially appreciate all the time and effort you put into it. I like how you back up all that you write with science. You are doing an amazing job. Don't let some lame people get you down. Keep up the good work. I really enjoy all your writings.

Ruth Ramaekers said...

I'm sorry you have to deal with this Susan. I will just add my voice to everyone else's and say ignore the meanies and keep on writing your fabulous blog.
I know you're trying to be fair in showing all the responses, but I would consider switching to comment approval if it bothers you so much. It's your blog, it's like having guests over at your house. If they were being really rude or upsetting you, you'd ask them to leave.

Sarah G. said...

Please don't stop blogging! I was really looking forward to part 2 of your Eye Cream post. Hint Hint. From the moment I found your blog I couldn't believe that someone would take the time and effort to share this much information with everyone and I am grateful everyday for it. You have definitely given me more confidence to try new ingredients and I find your knowledge invaluable. I only wish I lived closer so I could take a class from you :) Thank you.

olympia said...

you made me start taking cosmetic making seriously! You are my mentor although I don't know you!!! So many people love you, If some don't just don't pay attention they are not worth it!

Sara @Osmosis said...

Susan, when I asked the question about using baking soda to wash hair, I never intended for it to cause so much trouble. I respect your opinion and I am so glad you shared your thoughts with us. Please don't stop sharing.

Gillian Fryer said...

Susan, you are a very welcomed alternative to the fear based websites, like EWG. I love the idea of EWG, but it falls short in practice b/c of its constant errors, biases and refusal to make any corrections.

You give us information. ANd you do so in a manner that clears the fog, and makes complex ideas, much more easy to understand. I wish every cottage-industry body-care maker read your website.

The world is uncouth. It is ugly (we just had a hideously ugly election) and ugly behavior seems to be socially acceptable now. This is your website, and you don't need to accept anything that you don't like.

I just hope that a few people don't ruin it for the rest of us, by turning you off sharing all of your expertise.

Please hang in there!

Kristen said...

Oh, Super-Susan

Delete them, not your post.

This is YOUR blog, YOUR voice, YOUR super-hero lair.

Bad chemistry is your nemesis, not the stupid humans.

Keep using your powers for good.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry that you're feeling this way, but I think you're being too sensitive. I don't know what's happening in your personal life and if that has something to do with it, but no one has a personal vendetta against you. Like Carradee said, no one was trying to insult you and no one is flaming you; people are just disagreeing with your post and becoming defensive whenever you start saying they're attacking you.

Instead of deleting everything and posting things like this, maybe you should actually acknowledge the commenters in another post addressing their concerns. Then maybe both sides can actually understand each other.

Diane said...

Hi susan,

This 11:41 post is so very pathetic - or, as my younger friend would say, b*tch, please! Of course it's anonymous. It's just a fact that everyone won't agree with anything; as a family counselor you understand taht you won't get 100% success either. What we have here is an enterprise that you startred and are running with all good intentions and for the most part it is right on and informative. I would just suggest that you push that delete post button MUCH more often instead of getting affected when someone tries to put down your ideas. You have many supporters and this blog is to inform and communicate with them-period. Haters gonna hate, potatoes gonna potate! Keep up the good work and do what you have to do to keep things civil.

anja said...

Susan, this may be too little too late but I want you to know--and I should have commented sooner--that you're absolutely an inspiration. I love what you do with the youth groups, and I love what you do with the blog. When I first knew I wanted to make my own body care products I was intimidated but I found your blog and you have such a gift for making things--even complex chemical principles--easy to understand, and not scary at all. There's a lot of not-science going around and I always love it when you set the record straight. I hope you'll be back soon, and feisty to boot! That said, though, take all the time you need. You need to take care of yourself first and foremost and although I'll miss your posts I'd rather know that you are doing well physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, whatever. Just do anything you need to get away from toxic, sucky people.

keely said...

Oh my dear lovely Susan!!! I admire the thoughtful, well-researched, scientific approach you take to your posts. I value the time and effort you obviously put into your formulations, and truly appreciate your generosity in sharing your work and experience with us.

There is nothing we can do about people who cannot distinguish facts from opinion, or anecdote from data. So many of us benefit from your blog, and you should be proud of it.

Ignore them--they aren't even talking to you (they just wanna hear themselves). You, my dear, are a queen. Just nod your head and wave.

I am looking forward to your continued excellence and awesomeness.


Mychelle said...

Susan, I understand how hard it is to be bullied like that. As a dancer I have to take some very cruel criticism. I do moderate comments on my YouTube videos because, while I am always open to anyone's opinion, I am not interested in being insulted and degraded. Moderating does not mean you are closing the door to disagreement, it just keeps the creeps away.

You are fighting the good fight and it's so hard. I fight a different fight in my dance community (quality, training, not undercutting rates, etc)and I know it can beat you down. You can't let it! Anyone who is on the side of truth will be chadtised by those who are too afraid to hear it. You have done good work here, literally changed the lives of real people - like me. Please let that matter more than the hecklers and haters of the world. If they had what you have they wouldn't be so angry.

Anonymous said...

You help soooo many people Susan. Don`t let a few negative comments get you down.

Looking forward to read more on your blog


Susie said...

Hi Susan,
So many of your readers have expressed my feelings and much better than I could
Why aren’t you heeding your own advice –’don’t argue with a zealot’ . You posted this just after I was attacked on a forum for offering a recipe which I and others had successfully used. I of course took the attack and accusations personally as they were intended to be but I remembered what my father taught me and that was ‘don’t lower yourself to their level by the courtesy of a reply'. This advice doesn’t take away the hurt but it helps not to let them “win” as you put it.
You give so much of yourself to so many and all a lot of us can only say is Thank you which is so not enough. I really don’t understand why there are so many unhappy people out there who are just waiting to attack others, if only they could get pleasure from a blog like yours to light up their lives.
It is interesting to see in the comments that there are so many wise grandmothers, mine too had some good advice: if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.
I hope selfishly that your break is only short as I, like so many others, miss you and wish you well.

SarahF said...

I feel compelled to leave a comment too. Susan, you really are a goddess to a lot of people (more than you will probably ever know). Don't let some mindless idiots spoil things for you.
Rest, re-charge and come back as the Susan we know and love.

Anonymous said...

Hi Susan - this is your friend on the cold wet - very wet and now snowy south shore of Long Island!
Revamp - Regroup - Recharge...don't give this person the power to destroy doing that which you love and we all appreciate!
You're a teacher and you have an entire cyber space full of supporters who truly admire and respect you!
Breathe - Rest - and then come back to us!!
sending you light and love,

Anonymous said...

Hi Susan!

I am so sorry you had to experience such negativity on a space that you always have made so welcoming and positive! I too cherish your posts and knowledge that you share with us. Lise had a great idea to close the comments. I see bloggers and youtubers do it all the time so that the negativity doesn't fester. We all understand you need a break and a time to recharge, and we will all be faithfully and patiently awaiting your return *HUGS*
-Alex :)

Madeaj said...


Please don't go. I read the negative posts and I say delete them. Your blog has literally changed my life. I love that you research, encourage research and post what could be, should be critical cosmetic information. I send people here all the time, even though I feel like I have found a gold mine and want to keep your blog to myself. lol.

I found myself breaking out and having allergic reactions to just about every body wash, shampoo, conditioner, lotion etc I bought. I had no clue where to start and the recipes I found on the internet, just didn't give me reasons for using the ingredients. This was even before I knew about preservatives. Something wasn't right with the recipes. I stumbled on your blog, your home and boom, it all became clear. I had places to start my own research on ingredients, recipes and production methods. Thank you and please don't let some people bully you. I agree that a blog is like inviting people to your home. If someone does not like how things go in your home, you have every right to invite them out. If I go to a blog and I don't agree with the writer, I just go somewhere else. Please stay. Like others said, take a well needed break and when you get your fresh air, come back to us if only to show what you have made. I really enjoy your experiments with new ingredients.

goodgirl said...

Dear Susan,

I am sorry that these comments put you down. Maybe you can get a few days "off" the internet to get some distance and time to breathe.

I only can recommend to not allow anonymous comments and change your blog to comment moderation, that should help a lot already. Consider your blog as your house. You probably wouldn't want total strangers in your home talking in a tone you don't find appropriate... Right?

As for the baking soda story: Reading it without being involved I personally don't think that comments were rude or even uncivilized in the beginning. You ask for opinion, you will get it. Not everybody is a wordsmith and instantly finds the perfect expression for their thoughts. It's the internet, after all.

I did check on some of your referenced publications and to be honest, some are just not worth the paper they were printed on. So, even if something is published, take it with a grain of salt. Look at their affiliations, look at their data, look at their controls.

As a researcher, you always should be willing to move forward and keep your mind open to the fact that, indeed, your theories, even school book knowledge just might not be true. What was written in stone a few years ago, might not be valid anymore with new data available. This is not only true for classic sciences, it also applies to cosmetics.

By the way, the term anecdote has a pretty stale taste in German. It means an ooooold more or less funny and usually overexaggerated story told by an elderly person that you don't take seriously. Just to explain why I don't really like this term you use. I always feel like you are downgrading other peoples experiences. And that's something I really hope you don't do.
I would appreciate it if you kept on blogging. Definitely, I do not agree with some of the things you write, but oh well, that's life ;). I do enjoy the way you make chemistry easy. Thank you!


Ged said...

Hi Susan

I think you and I are alike in that if we get a hundred great compliments and one person is nasty, guess which is the one we will mull over ...

I'm definitely going to take HissyFit's grandma's advice from now on and I think you should as well. The interwebs can be a very murky place and we owe it to ourselves to not let a few people who should know how to behave better stop us trying to inform, discuss and improve our work in a rational manner.

I really can't see why the baking powder lovers are reading your blog - it's a blog about making cosmetics with scientifically developed ingredients for heaven's sake, not about mashing up an avocado to slather on as a face mask. There are plenty of sites like that, and if that is what they want, that is where they should go!

Re the BP and vinegar - I did actually go the no-shampoo route for a while, did a conditioner wash every so often, and it was ok-ish (I have very thick, very dry hair) But thanks to you and the Dish I now have a perfect 2-in-1 shampoo that makes my hair behave really well.

Oh, did I forget to say - love the blog, it's one of only a few that's om my bookmarks bar ... please don't deprve me of my almost daily fix!

Anonymous said...

Susan, I've been following your blog and making lotions and creams for many months now (don't worry, I'm not selling anything lol!). You've changed my life. Don't let passive aggressive internet bullies steal your joy. It radiates from your blog.

maggie ghanem said...

Oh My! Susan I am so sorry to have ready that and They Don't win.
They can't even leave their name and go with Anonymous.
They didn't win. I'm glad you won't let them win!
Always your passion listener,
Maggie Ghanem

p said...

Hi Susan,

I've been thinking about your post and wanted to add my two cents - that's me, typically long-winded and late to the party! :)

I'm so sorry to hear about how these comments have gotten to you. I want to echo the sentiments that others have written, that you are incredibly warm, even-handed, kind, and beyond all else, incredibly generous with your knowledge and time. I think you could easily charge money for your blog content and still have tons of readers, myself included, but you offer it all for free because of your love of learning and your desire to foster that love in other people. I feel this is incredibly rare on the internet. Most everyone else has another motivation -- either they're selling something, or they're on the road to doing so, or something similar, so they keep some of their hard-won knowledge to themselves. Not you.

Just as rare is the tone of your blog -- you believe in civility, in disagreeing without attacking, that we can and should be able to find common ground through data and science. My sense is that anyone who regularly reads your blog understands this and responds in kind. But the fact is that the internet is filled with people acting like jerks, saying things they never would in real life, hiding behind anonymity or a pseudonym. Sometimes I read The Beauty Brains and am floored by how inflammatory, mean, ad hominem, and just generally uncivil the commenters can be. But then I compare them to the sorts of stuff people say on, for example, Gawker (or, god forbid, Reddit!), and they no longer seem so notable.

My feeling is that you've tried -- and basically succeeded -- to create a place of civility that is a few orders of magnitude better than the standard internet dreck. When readers float in from other sites, they bring with them the standard (terrible) internet morays. If they haven't read your blog much -- and certainly it seems that many of the commenters on more "controversial" posts are new readers -- they don't understand that your standards for how you talk to people are much higher, and that you expect other people to follow the golden rule too. By internet standards what these commenters said is tame, but to your readers who know you, who know how much time and work you put into this incredibly valuable blog, who know how respectful you are of others -- for us, the snap assertions that you're ignorant, ideological, or are jumping to conclusions, well, those assertions raise hackles. It's the clash of the unusual space you've created in this blog, with the outside world of the internet with its name-calling and worse.

I too hope that you don't delete the post. Most of all I hope you can feel the outpouring of goodwill every day from your many readers who are like me, who visit this page just about every day to hear your voice and learn something new. For every "thank you" you receive, there are a hundred people thinking the same. I hope it's enough to keep the jerks from weighing on your mind.

Andrea said...

Hey Susan!
I just wanted to add my 2 cents - I have learned a wealth of information from you. I just love reading your blog (I'm a bit of a newb when it comes to bath and body products) and I never would have made my first lotions and conditioners without it. You've inspired me to create all of my Christmas gifts this year, and even experiment with ingredients (trying to get that perfect bubble bar...). Anyhow, I can see the amount of time and energy you put into researching each ingredient and thoughtfully adding them together to make beautiful 'creations' as you call them.
When it comes to others who criticize what you do, I can sympathize. As my mother in law says, try to look ahead 5 years... will these comments still be important in your life? Nope, so try to let it slide. Although that's easier said than done, I know. On the other hand, it's YOUR blog, and if you want to delete a post, that is OK too :)

Topcat said...

Hello Susan ~ wow.....

I just wanted to add that I love your blog and you have helped me many times without realising it. I don't agree with everything you post but I don't expect to either (and I also realise that you are probably more often right than I am...lol).

Please understand that there are many people online who feel overwhelmed by their personal circumstances, that they feel they cannot change, and who crave attention. They are called 'trolls' on most forums I have visited and for good reason. The way to deal with them is to learn to recognise the signs (posting anonymously is the first big one) and then shut them down - no comment, no apology - just do it. By giving them time and energy you are feeding their anti-social behaviour. Stop applying reasoning to their behaviour - they only want to make you feel bad for being different to them.

You are a good person so don't take their comments personally. Big hugs, Tanya xxx

Katie said...

Goodness gracious! Things sure did get spicy around here while I was away! Ignorance always speaks the loudest, Susan and some people just can't stop hammering in their half-baked theories. I read the entire thread and none of those people convinced me to run for the cupboard and get out the baking soda. Your scientific knowledge won, because this girl with thick, curly, dry hair ain't going all high-pH with a non-substantive "conditioner" any time soon! Hang in there, ignore the trolls and keep posting!