Sunday, February 10, 2013

Weekend wonderings: Hydrolyzed proteins, all in one emulsifiers, and preservatives for anhydrous products

In this post on hydrolyzed oat protein, Marjo commented: I love the benefits described and tried today a testbatch.. But indeed i have real issue with the smell too... Wow it is really smelly! I think I will stick to silk and elastine.

It's interesting how we react differently to different ingredients! As I've mentioned quite a few times, I can't stand really earthy or musty smells. (If you wanted to make a Swift repellant, throw a few drops of patchouli with chamomile and I'd avoid you like broccoli!) I find hydrolyzed proteins tend to smell a bit musty, but when combined with other ingredients, I don't notice. I do notice slightly it in a toner or a facial cleanser, things that don't get fragranced. Do you notice the smell of the silk? (And what is elastine? Just curious!)

What ingredients do you avoid because of the smell? What do you use, but kinda don't like? 

In this post, Kate Melton said: Hi, I like your blog, because it's very informative. Little question: Is it true that when you use an ''all in one kind'' emulsifier like the e-wax/polawax/BTMS, you don't need look at the HLB of your oil phase etc. (like you do in this post). I really hope you want to give me some clarification about this:D!

Thanks for the kind words, Kate! Yes, it is true that you don't need to look at the HLB value of the oil phase if you're using an all-in-one emulsifier. That's the point of using them. When we use Polawax, Ritamulse SCG, or Incroquat BTMS-50, we total up the oil phase - all the oil soluble things in the heated oil phase and the cool down phase - and figure out the emulsifier. For Polawax, the rule of thumb is 25% of the oil phase. For Ritamulse SCG, really don't go over 25% oils. (I generally use 8% Ritamulse SCG regardless of size of oil phase because I've found it is really particular stuff! I think it was Tara who said she finds 6% works for her!) For Incroquat BTMS-50...there isn't a rule of thumb. For other emulsifiers, check with your supplier to make sure it's an all in one product before you buy it and contact them for more information if you aren't sure! Make sure you ask them how much you should use!

I know this sounds like a silly suggestion, but you'd be surprised how many people write to me asking about the usage rates and phases for the ingredients because the suppliers either don't know or won't respond! 

Related posts:
Emulsifiers: E-wax, Polawax, and Incroquat BTMS-50
Emulsifiers: Check what you've got! 
Learning to formulate: The oil phase

In this post, Sanziene writes: What is your favourite preservative for water free products? I am planning to make some solid cream bars to giveaway to friends and family (nothing fancy, just emulsifying wax, oils and butters, some mica and perhaps fragrance) but I am worried about preservation. I only have LGP and Microkill COS at home. Planning to place a lotioncrafter order soon, so I was wondering if I should choose Phenonip or some other oil soluble preservative? 

Also, is there a paraben-free oil soluble preservative that you would endorse? I have nothing against parabens, but I have a hard time convincing my relatives that they are safe :). So, if possible, I would love to add a broad spectrum preservative, oil soluble and paraben free (Phenonip is actually in my cart already, but I am just wondering if there might be something else.... maybe on a different supplier?)

Ok, now you mention there that one could use Optiphen. Mikrokill COS is phenoxyethanol, caprylyl glycol and chlorphenesin. It is not water soluble, so that means for me oil soluble, is this correct? I could use it in the solid shower cream, but I ... I'd like to hear first your opinion (in the meantime I am doing additional research :)

As you noted in your comment, I addressed this issue in this post about adding preservatives to your anhydrous hair care products, but I think we should re-visit it here! My favourite preservative for anhydrous products is Phenonip. I have no issue with parabens as they are effective and very easy to use preservatives for anhydrous products. I find it works very well at 0.5% to 1% in my products.

Taking a look at the preservative comparision chart, I can see that Liquipar Oil, Liquipar Optima, Liquipar PE, and Phenonip are all suitable for anhydrous products. The Optiphen products might be good for your products as well. I can't fully endorse any of them as I haven't tested them, but I have heard great feedback from so many people about them that I think they'd be great choices.

The data sheet for Mikrokill COS is a little vague, but I think we can interpret it as being an oil soluble preservative. (Phenoxyethanol and chlorphenesin are oil soluble, so it stands to reason the preservativec would be oil soluble.) So yes, it sounds like a good choice. Again, I haven't used this preservative - there's only so much time in the day! - but using the data sheets and tiny bit of research I've done, it sounds like a good choice.

Before you write to me about the evils of parabens, please take a moment read this blog post by Dr Joe Schwarz. His conclusions: The studies were not good ones and the conclusions can't be trusted. While you're out there, check out this post on argan oil. His conclusion: Meh. 

If you want to read more of Dr Joe Schwarcz, I recommend his books, or check out the cosmetic section of Chemically Speaking, or check out his blog at CJAD. I love this guy! Oh, and read this speech he gave to Parliament. Fantastic! Finally, check out the blog at the Office of Science & Society. It's great!

Related posts:
Preservatives section of the blog
Preservatives: Choosing a preservative


Lise M Andersen said...

Funny you should mention scents. I just did a post on how I work with and change scents instead of trying to cover them up. Here's a link if anyone is interested. :)

PS: So, no Roman Chamomile for you? Or is it the German chamomile you don't like?

Marjo said...

Thanks for answering!! I will donate the oats to someone cant even find a fragrance strong enough to block the smelly stuff haha. Elastine : powdered stuff but non smelly.. INCI naam van Elastine P is Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein.

Another question if you ever have time!
Fragrance.. I became a huge testing anything i can find person thanks to your blog.. Yesterday i found ambergris which was fascinating and read that it can prolong the time you can smell used fragrances... Is there somthing like smell preservant? And i ask because next to reading ambergris i boticed bodysprays changimg smell after about two weeks.. I preserved them pretty well but wondered about preserving fragrances :)

Marjo said...

Ih an liselise i follow your blog too :) and i read that particular post :)
there is not one essential oil i actually like in smell and on skin so thats not an option for me personally hence the omitance of the entire oat protein

Marjo said...

Oh i cannot smell silk !! So thats great :)
i do really notice lechtitin lanolin and
kurquat: the latter: in hair goods i use strong scents to mask it
i would normally not use (i like hints of scent i noticed being on the lotionmaking adventure now :)))
because of the fishysmell

Susan Barclay-Nichols said...

Hi Lise! This is why you're bookmarked in my favourites! I hate chamomile of any type. I've tried a bunch of them, and I even dislike the hydrosol and powder, but I can handle them in small amounts.

Hi Marjo! I have Phytoerkeratin, which includes wheat protein, and I can smell it. I've never smelled wheat protein on its own.

As for fragrance fixatives, consider dipropylene glycol or C12-15 alkyl benzoate.

Ambergris is whale gunk! Yuk!

I do like a lot of essential oils, and I can handle some of the earthier ones - rosemary, thyme, sage, and cedarwood - and I love the citrus ones! (Try a combination of equal parts key lime and vanilla for a key lime pie, or try key lime and eucalyptus at 3:1. It's such a green smell!)

Kate Melton said...

Thank you for answering my question! It's really appreciated.

Kelli Spears said...

I haven't come across many ingredients that have scents I really cannot tolerate. Only one comes to mind, Jordapon ACI surfactant. I know this is the liquid version of SCI (I LOVE SCI!) but they smell nothing alike and for some reason the Jordapon makes me nauseaous even at the end when I've added fragrance I can still smell it. The only other ingredient that I've purchased that has a really noticeable scent is PPG-2 Myristyl Ether Propionate. This is an ester that some of you (I know Susan knows)may know as Crodamol PMP. It has a noticeable vinegary type scent out of the bottle but I have formulated with it at 2% and at the end of the formulation process I could not detect the smell any longer.
Would also like to comment on preservatives for anhydrous formulations. Ingredients to Die For sells one called VegeCide. Which is Glyceryl Monocaprylate (and) Glyceryl Monoundecylenate. It states it is a broad spectrum preservative that is both oil and water soluble and can be added during any point in the formulation. It is PH dependant if you are actually making an emulsion.
The last comment is for Marjo in regards to prolonging fragrance or scent in formulas. Lotioncrafters sells an ingredient called AromaFix, INCI name PPG-20 Methyl Glucose Ether that serves as a perfume or fragrance fixative. It does have compatibility issues with some other ingredients, such as Cyclomethicone. If you prefer a natural fragrance fixative then I would suggest Benzoin essential oil/resin. It has a vanilla, slightly woody aroma that may add a different note to whatever other fragrance/scent you are using but I have some and to me it is not a strong smell, so maybe it wouldn't alter your scent of choice enough to be noticeable. Hope that helps.

Sânziene şi Mătrăgună said...

How nice :-) I might use my Microkill COS but I already have phenonip in my cart :)

As for smelly ingredients, I can handle A LOT. But I can't handle neem oil. Also, any srong scent in wash off products - the milder the better.

I actually love oats and wheat proteins, how weird is that?!

Lise M Andersen said...

@Susan - Thanks for your super kind words! Noted about the chamomile oils. Scent preference is so individual. My husband absolutely despises jasmine and can detect even the tiniest amount in anything I make (so sad - cuz I quite like working with it – but so rarely use it for anything at all because of his sensitivity to it)

@Marjo - thanks for following! Sounds like you are not an essential oil fan. I know what you mean about smelly ingredients though.. I've certainly worked with my fair share of them :)

SarahF said...

Microkill COS can also be used in aqueous products if you blend it first 1:1 with polysorbate 20. Then add your other ingredients.

Marjo said...

Hey lisa :) great blogs alltogether

I will look at the benzoin and dipropylene glycil cannot get c12 in europe thanks again!!! More testign coming up :)

Will said...

Hate the smell of tamanu! Can pick it out yards away.

On the topic of hydrolyzed proteins, is there any source that's not real expensive?

Why is it so expensive, too, any idea -- isn't it sort of just oat water?


Noula said...

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly where I can purchase these hydrolyzed proteins?

Thanks in advance.

Susan Barclay-Nichols said...

Hi Noula! Check out the list of suppliers in the FAQ in your area!

Noula said...

Thanks so much Susan! Found everything I needed to find through the FAQ. :)


Marjo said...

@kelli thanks for thinking along! I just received the benzoin so am going to give that a try!